Colorado Interview.
By TERJE LANGELAND
Colorado Daily Staff Writer
http://www.codaily.com

If John Hagelin were to win this fall's U.S. presidential
election, he'd be the most highly educated president ever.

A Harvard-trained quantum physicist and an educator, Hagelin
is expected to be the presidential candidate of the Natural
Law Party for the third time this fall. He is also pursuing
the nomination of the Reform Party, in hopes of building a
third-party coalition with enough power to pose a serious
challenge to the Democrats and Republicans.

It's not easy to pigeonhole the Natural Law Party's platform,
at least not using the traditional left-vs.-right political
terms.

Skeptics have said the party is really just a front for the
Transcendental Meditation movement founded by the Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi, which in the past has claimed that meditation can
enable people to hover in mid-air.

But speaking to an enthusiastic crowd of more than 600 people
in Denver last week, Hagelin delivered a message that was very
much down-to-earth, focusing on populist and progressive
themes like campaign-finance reform, curbs on corporate power
and a moratorium on genetically engineered foods until such
foods can be safely tested and labeled.

The Colorado Daily caught up with Hagelin for an interview
following his speech. The following is a condensed version of
that conversation:

Colorado Daily: What made you decide to run for president?

Hagelin: I really see a nation, a humanity that -- for reasons
of education, primarily, I suppose -- are failing to live
their full potential life, to enjoy life as richly as
possible, be as successful as possible. ...

I was drawn into education for that purpose, and then I
basically feel that politics similarly must awaken to the need
for education that really harnesses the vast untapped
potential of the human resources of the American people. If we
continue to graduate students who are not reaching adolescent
levels of development, we're going to live in an adolescent
society. Adolescents shouldn't have nuclear weapons.
Adolescents shouldn't have chemical or biological weapons.

Not that everybody in society acts on that level, but if you
look at the decisions of our government, the fact that the
Senate, the Republican Senate, fast-tracked and defeated the
Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, that's immoral. It's criminal,
and it plays only to the interests of the nuclear
manufacturers and no one else.

We already have, obviously, nuclear superiority, the most
advanced, the most extensive nuclear arsenal on Earth. We
weren't content with that. Instead we had to spend more money,
special-interest money, on nukes. And that has given not only
license but motivation to India and Pakistan and other
countries all over the world to get busy, to keep up
developing nuclear arsenals. And it's given them the moral
authority to do so. It's an outrageous vote, and it was rushed
through without debate by the Republican Senate, in the pocket
of special interests.

Ultimately, these are human problems -- avarice, greed,
underutilization of our full potential. That's what my life
has always been dedicated to as an educator. But now it's
taken a political voice. Of course, since I entered the
process, I've seen up close and become frustrated with
virtually every area of national policy. Genetic engineering
and the complicity of our government rushing these untested,
unsafe foods to the market. Of course, our energy policy is
180-degrees backward. Foreign policy is based on the export of
weapons. And I'm pretty much equally fired up and motivated to
change national policy on all of these issues.

CD: I've heard a lot about a connection between the Natural
Law Party and Transcendental Meditation.

Hagelin: The party has a very pragmatic philosophy. And me as
a scientist running for office, similarly, I always stick my
neck out for what works, whatever is effective,
cost-effective, whether it happens to be a treatment for high
blood pressure, physical rehabilitation, education,
agriculture. And (Transcendental Meditation) has been found to
be effective by the National Institutes of Health against high
blood pressure, heart disease and stroke.

Half of our seniors on Medicare are at risk of heart disease,
and heart disease, we now know, is a preventable form of
disease. One of the things that irritates me is knowing that
Medicare kills 585,000 grandparents every year by denying them
coverage for preventive programs, like Transcendental
Meditation, that could have prevented the onset of heart
disease and death. I will be similarly bold about sustainable
agricultural methods, renewable energy technologies, whatever
works. ...

Other than that, there's no connection, no financial ties
(between Natural Law and the TM movement).

CD: Your field, nuclear physics, is very empirical. How do you
make the leap from that empirical world to all this spiritual
stuff? You don't typically think of a nuclear physicist as
doing that.

Hagelin: Most haven't, admittedly. But quantum physics,
especially, destroys the myth of materialism. ...

According to quantum physics, we're living in a connected
universe, and according to the latest developments in quantum
physics, by which I mean unified quantum field theories, we're
living in a unified universe. So when you really pursue
science to its limits, you end up with a spiritual message:
the ultimate unity of everyone and everything in creation. ...

Right now our government is based upon, really, 18th-century
barbaric policies and practices. I'd like to update government
and base it upon the most updated, comprehensive knowledge of
natural law, knowledge of the universe. And the moment it's
updated, policies will start to be life-nourishing,
universally beneficial, like preventive health care.

It's a win-win program; it's a win-win solution. It's good for
fiscal conservatives because it saves money; it's good for
liberals because it improves the quality of life.

CD: That's sounds so radically different. To some people
that's obviously very refreshing, but others might dismiss you
as "out there somewhere," you know?

Hagelin: Well, actually, they look at the platform, which
boils down to, again, a very simple mantra: Government should
be based on what actually works, not what's bought and paid
for by special interest groups. It's a message people get.
It's a very pragmatic message; it's a down-to-earth message.
As a scientist I would support what works, but by the same
token I would un-support what doesn't work.

The problem there is that currently -- and this, for a
scientist, is just maddening -- there is no review process in
government to re-examine programs that have been on the books
for a quarter century, that may have failed from the beginning
or may have long since become obsolete.

There's a saying in Washington, D.C.,: "What's goes in the
books, stays on the books," because no one ever goes to
Washington, D.C., to remove obsolete and expensive, failed
policies. (They go) to Washington, D.C., to bring home the
bacon by adding new policies that benefit their states.

Traditionally, people have described the political spectrum as
left vs. right. Some people in the populist movement are
talking more about a top-vs.-bottom axis. Do you place
yourself anywhere on either of those spectrums?

Hagelin: Firstly, we transcend those one-dimensional politics
completely. ... That whole view of politics is based on a
zero-sum assumption that there's only so much resources, so
many limited health-care dollars, for example, to go around.
And what we're saying is that we can structure win-win
solutions where everybody enjoys better health care, where
everyone has access to health care at a net cost savings to
the nation, by preventing disease and promoting health, or by
education that puts to work the limitless creativity and
intelligence of the American people. ...

I would say that Natural Law solutions are life-nourishing and
universally enriching. ... You can really unite opposites by
transcending the surface squabble.

CD: Do you favor a national, single-payer health-care system?

Hagelin: I don't think it's necessary. I think we'll find that
a combination of public and private-sector health-care works
when we unburden systems from the growing demand for
disease-care services, through the prevention of disease
through proven methods. At that point, we'll re-examine the
system and see where it needs to be tweaked.

There's certain things I would do that I would call systemic.
I would give Medicare subscribers medical vouchers, basically
a check that they can use to purchase the medical coverage
they want. That will foster competition among medical
providers and improve both the cost-effectiveness and quality
of medical care, but it will also allow people to choose, for
example, a system that offers preventive health care.

CD: I know you favor a holistic approach to everything, but if
I can ask you your opinions on some very specific things --
what about the defense budget?

Hagelin: It's too large. For starters, we could trim
billion a year from useless weapons appropriations that the
Pentagon, branches of our military, don't even want, like more
B-2 bombers at billion apiece. These appropriations come
from committees within the Congress that are tightly wed to
the military-industrial special-interest groups. It's all
well-documented; it's a matter of public record. There's a
tremendous waste there.

But the other thing we can do to strengthen our defense while
cutting the defense costs -- this is the real Natural Law
Party solution -- is to stop creating enemies throughout the
world. We sow the seeds of enmity every day all over the world
through our so-called foreign policy and defense policies,
doing hateful things in the name of the American people.

One thing about foreign aid, about which we all tend to be
somewhat proud -- it's almost all military aid. It's coupons
that we give to foreign countries that get redeemed to U.S.
arms manufacturers for weapons. So in a sense it's very much
an inside-the-beltway subsidy of the arms-producing
industries. As a result of that, we're now known as the
country that will provide a rifle to every man, woman and
child. We are on both sides of every conflict on Earth. We
come across our own weapons in the battlefield, and we sow the
seeds of enmity.

That's why we're the principal target of terrorists throughout
the world. Not because we stand for freedom but because of the
hateful things we do in the name of the American people. And
there's no defense against it. We could spend a trillion
dollars on Star Wars -- and that's what it's going to cost --
(and) when all is said and done we'll be able to defend
ourselves against one country, North Korea. And even not
against North Korea, because North Korea would never use such
a high-cost, high-tech, traceable delivery device like an
ICBM, when they could simply float a crude nuclear device up
the Potomac. So there's really no defense against terrorism,
and the only way to strengthen our security is to stop
creating terrorists.

CD: Speaking of sowing the seeds of enmity, do you favor
ending the sanctions against Iraq?

Hagelin: Yes. And Cuba, just because it's so obviously a
failed policy. It's galvanizing the whole country against the
United States. I think we're probably keeping Fidel Castro in
power by galvanizing his role as a national hero standing up
against the big bully to the north. It's time to review some
of these failed policies.

CD: What about the War on Drugs?

Hagelin: It's a failed war. We certainly should revisit and
soften a lot of drug penalties, especially for possession and
use. I think there are a million people in jail like that, who
are there for such nonviolent drug offenses. That's a waste of
a generation, really.

But we must focus on the demand side of the drug economy by
reducing the desire to take drugs. And I really think the way
to do that is proper education that gives our coming
generations access to their full potential and access to their
full professional potential, instead of an educational system
today that's fallen to all-time lows in comparison to other
countries.

But the reason why I wouldn't just open up, legalize drugs
completely, is that as the head of a brain research institute,
I have very, very graphic, state-of-the-art images of what
even six months of alcohol or even marijuana, heavy marijuana
use, can do to a person. It's not pretty. ... I don't want to
send the wrong signal to youths by implying that drugs are OK.

CD: You say you can cut taxes "deeply." Where is that money
going to come from?

Hagelin: It's going to come from billion of savings in
the public-sector health arena. Not in year one, not in year
two, but beginning in year three, year four, year five. It's
going to come from ending our energy dependence on foreign
oils and all the military expenditures that are tied up in
keeping a fleet there in the Middle East. In fact, half of our
trade deficit that the Reform Party members scream about,
rightly, is due to foreign oil. And we can wean ourselves from
that addiction very quickly when we put our engineers and our
American ingenuity to work.

The costs of crime are quite staggering considering the
property costs, the direct costs to property and to human
life. By cutting crime through effective crime prevention
programs that work, you can save probably billion to
billion. ...

The whole idea of the Natural Law Party platform is proven,
cost-effective, humane solutions. And we could, for example,
live right now -- if we get rid of all the corporate welfare
and simplify the tax code -- we could live with a 17-percent
flat tax, for example, with a generous floor, a ,000 floor
below which you don't pay tax. And that 17 percent could
probably fall to between 11 and 12 percent in four or five
years, maintaining a balanced budget and actually retiring the
debt and shoring up Social Security and Medicare.

CD: You refer often to these "proven solutions." What are
they?

Hagelin: Our platform has all the scientific references that
show that, for example, improving the nutritional quality of
school lunches will improve attention span and academic
performance, that malnutrition has a serious debilitating role
in the effectiveness of education, especially in our
financially disadvantaged neighborhoods. ...

The real blessing of doing what I'm doing is that I get the
benefit of input from thousands of people who are conscious of
solutions that are working in their classrooms, on their farms
to prevent the erosion of soil, in their health care
practices.

CD: Is there a unifying theme throughout these solutions?

Hagelin: They're prevention-oriented, sustainable, in harmony
with natural law. Which, for example, genetic engineering is
not. And that means an education, of course. We want to
harness the laws of nature that govern learning and govern
child development, the maturation of the human brain. ...

It's more or less common sense, what's in tune with natural
law. But if there's ever any doubt, science can show what is
effective and what is not.

CD: How do you counter the notion that a third-party vote is a
wasted vote?

Hagelin: I'll point to history and say, "Third-party votes are
the only votes that have ever accomplished anything." It's
only when a third-party movement reaches a million votes, 2
million votes, that the Republicans and Democrats scramble:
"What do they have that we don't, what are we missing here?"
And then, these ideas become absorbed and become part of the
political mainstream. That's another way of winning; that's
the way third parties traditionally win.

We're going to do better than that. ... Jesse Ventura -- like
him or not, he's really a fresh voice in politics -- he made a
lie of the Republican and Democratic spin that third- party
candidates cannot win. They can win. In three weeks, he went
from nothing to governor, and we have seven or eight months to
do that.

CD: I was in Washington and watched some of the demonstrations
against the IMF and the World Bank. A lot of people who read
our paper are very concerned about that, the WTO, NAFTA. How
do you feel about it?

Hagelin: Well, those are different institutions. The WTO, I
have issued a statement saying that if they don't revise their
behind-closed-doors, undemocratic practices, if they don't
admit significant input from environment, from human rights,
labor concerns, that I would withdraw the country from that.

But I'm not surprised that these trade organizations or trade
policies are warped, because they're warped in the very same
way, by the very same special interests that have warped and
co-opted every other area of government policy.

I believe in trade. Particularly now, the U.S. is spearheading
the global information revolution, which is a good revolution.
It takes us away from gross material consumption and is more
about self-knowledge, self-development. But we need markets
for our ingenuity, and trade is going to be essential to make
sure that people who aren't benefiting from this incredible
economic prosperity can benefit from it.

So trade is good, but (not) trade policies that are dictated
by multinationals, by corporate interests alone. When trade
with China is all about selling Coca-Cola, Marlboro and
pharmaceuticals with no concern for human rights, the
environment or labor, then it becomes self-destructive.

You know, some of these changes will happen by themselves when
our public servants become public servants, because right now
they're not, really. ... Books like "The Buying of Congress"
have proven that is the case. And until Americans really know
that, it won't change. I think if Americans knew what I have
learned, they would take to the streets. I think the Natural
Law Party can prevent that.

CD: Some people did take to the streets, in D.C.

Hagelin: And many will. (But) the Natural Law Party can effect
a peaceful revolution by acting within the system, according
to even the perverse democratic laws that we currently have.

CD: A lot of the things you've said tonight really mirror a
lot of what people like the Green Party, the New Party are
saying. Where would you say that you really differ from those?

Hagelin: The Green Party is a subset of the Natural Law
Party's broader platform. The New platform is even closer to
the Natural Law Party's platform. The Reform Party is a small
but important subset of the Natural Law Party's platform. The
Natural Law Party is unique among third parties in that it's
not a special-issue, single-issue party. It's a broad-based
platform, a comprehensive platform of solutions that most
Americans, literally, will feel comfortable standing behind.
...

I am committed to forging a coalition of American third
parties in this campaign. I am seeking the Reform Party's
presidential nomination. ... It's a party in search for a
message and in search of a messenger, but most members of the
party have far deeper support for this type of reform, for
inclusive, life-nourishing, common-sense, proven solutions
than Pat Buchanan's style of reform. So I expect to win that
public vote, and anyone can participate in it -- Republicans,
Democrats, Independents, Natural Laws, Greens.

All we need to do is get the word out that there are two
possible directions -- this type of reform or Buchanan's
reform. And we'll win that vote. When we do, we'll have forged
a very powerful coalition of parties that I hope that the
Greens will participate in.

CD: You said that you're suing the Federal Elections
Commission?

Hagelin: That suit was actually initiated back in 1996, and
we're expecting to hear back any moment. Because the
(presidential) debates commission, which the FEC oversees, is
not a legal commission. It's not legal in that it shouldn't be
tax-exempt. To enjoy tax-deductible contributions, you have to
be nonpartisan. And nonpartisan is not bipartisan. And that
debate commission consists essentially of two people, former
Republican and Democratic chairs, one of which is now a
lobbyist for the gambling industry. And they are being paid to
concoct some rationale to rubber-stamp whatever the Democratic
or Republican candidates want.

In 1992, they wanted Perot; in 1996, they decided they didn't
want me or Perot, so they concocted an argument that would
keep us out. The criteria, by law, must be objective, or else
they can't claim that it's nonpartisan.

CD: How does challenging their tax-exempt status help?

Hagelin: That would mean there would have to be objective
criteria for participation next time. ... They have to buy TV
time, and the Philip Morrises of the world won't contribute to
that TV time if they can't get a tax-deduction, so it would be
a very strong incentive for them to open up the process.

CD: Some people have said this country's elections are so
corrupt we should have the United Nations monitoring our
election process.

Hagelin: Well, they are corrupt, and they are really the least
democratic of elections on Earth. They have fallen to that
degree. But I think that we as a people can monitor ourselves,
and it's just a question of education. People need to know to
what degree our democratic process has been co-opted, and they
will exercise their right to vote no matter how many hundreds
of millions of dollars of propaganda George W. can throw at
us.

No one has voted yet; no one has voted anything yet. No matter
how much money is spent, if people are simply alert, they're
educated about their candidates and what they really stand
for, then no amount of special-interest control of our
government will be enough, will be sufficient. So we're on an
educational campaign. ...

On the campuses, which have really been asleep, politically
speaking -- compared to the '60s, sound asleep -- we're
starting to see an awakening, almost the start of a grassroots
brush fire. Only 11 percent of students voted in 1998. That's
just appalling by any historic standards; it's outrageous. But
the students have no investment in the Republican or
Democratic parties. When I speak to a poli-sci class of 150
people and ask how many are Republicans, two hands go up. How
many Democrats? Three, four. The rest, they're all waiting,
looking for a reason to vote. They have no investment in
either party.

Once this starts on the campuses -- wow! Students are
connected, you know, on the Net, and you can reach a critical
mass on the Internet so fast.

For more information on Hagelin's candidacy and the Natural
Law Party, visit www.hagelin.org or www.natural-law.org.